
Before being officially banned from the City-data religion forum, I was asked to explain what anti-theism is so I wrote the following. Now most of you would recognize this as essentially Christopher Hitchens' position so perhaps there's nothing new here for you. This is why I did not post it here, but since I can no longer respond to questions (and several challenges) anymore there, I figure I'll post here so maybe those people can post such things here and still maintain their anonymity if they wish which they couldn't if they emailed me. So without further adieu...
I'll start off with some other definitions:
theism - the belief in a god or gods
agnosticism - the "who knows?" stance on the god issue where, due to lack of evidence, someone finds it hard to believe in a god but figures one could be there, who knows?
atheism - goes a bit further and says that since there's no evidence, there's no god, just as there's no unicorns or leprechauns since there's no evidence of them either
anti-theism - Term being established now due to Christopher Hitchens' usage essentially is an all out objection to the very idea of deities due to what the ramifications would be should they, or even one exist, which is the complete devaluing of humanity and the universe.
What's wrong with there being a god? Let me focus on a participatory creator god, one that establishes some rules, expects them followed and from time to time intervenes in existence since this is what most people imagine and assert when talking and thinking of a god. What this would turn existence into is the most extreme totalitarian state where from the moment of conception through life, death, and beyond for eternity, you and your thoughts would be supervised. Indeed, it is after you die where the real terror begins because you now will face either an eternity of servile praising of this very jealous and insecure entity, which sounds like torture enough, or an even worse fate of terrible pain and torture for eternity for failing to abide by the rules of this entity during your physical life which mostly boils down to servile praising and self denial. The wishing for such a god boils down to wishing for slavery, for servitude, for a complete elimination of independence, individuality, and responsibility, an existence of perpetual kneeling, bowing, praising and praying, an absolute surrender of everything before your master.
Now beyond just a mere Big Brother entity who supervises and intervenes occasionally, the world's religions also feel anything of value that we think, feel and accomplish are all due to this entity. Did a doctor cure you? Well god worked through him. Great works of art and culture? God. As we all know, Kathy Griffin recently objected to this in her acceptance of an Emmy, claiming that in no way did Jesus have anything to do with her winning. The standard response, as you all are familiar of, is to thank your god for the win, either by direct intervention to help you or hurt others or as some internal drive and state of mind. Even in a moment of great accomplishment you're robbed of the satisfaction of a job well done, surrendering it to your master. I also want to go back and bring up the idea that a god would actively make you win at the expense of others. This of course has been an anthem by tribes and nations throughout history for the righteousness of their cause over others which is especially repugnant and a nice segue to morality.
A big assertion by theists is the necessity of a god for morality. Once again, we humans are devalued because we could not possibly be inherently moral or be able to formulate morality on our own. Oh no. The idea that the Jews got as far as Sinai thinking murder, adultery and the rest were fine and dandy and no one ever thought they were wrong until Moses got the commandments from god is ludicrous. The contempt for humanity is palpable here, that we couldn't know unless told that such things were wrong. I for one do not choose to devalue humanity so. As you can read in the article The Sacrifice of Admetus, there are further links to scientific findings that show altruism existing in not just human babies but in wild chimps and even rats! The response by theists to this usually is to say that it's because god created us all with this morality built in, which once again devalues us all since yet again morality is not something we either evolved with or developed but had to have it inserted, that we otherwise couldn't have had it without divine insertion. Let's also not forget that if we accept this religious assertion, then why would we need some commandments and threat of hell if we've been created with morals built in?
But of course somewhere along the way we "screwed the pooch" so to speak. An apple in a garden and suddenly we're all doomed before we're even born. Once again, how repugnant. No, none of us are perfect but a certainly feel we're capable of greatness on our own, including being moral, without divine guidance. An amazing and perhaps very telling question presented by theists is "without god, what keeps you from killing people?" to which you have to wonder, without faith would theists start killing people? You certainly don't see atheists running through the streets raping and killing, making the world just one big play of GTA yet theists assert that without god that's what would happen so for those who feel that way, let's be thankful they believe in a god or else you or I might be walking down the street and meet an untimely end.
Now I did mention devaluing the universe. Believers feel the universe is wonderful because it was created by a god but I ask you which is more wonderful, that this universe was designed or that it just happen to be? Is it more magnificent that a little corner of this existence was manufactured for us and that we were then plopped on or that within this chaos this little blue orb came to be and upon it's surface, life sprang forth which has resulted in you and me so far. Can you honestly say the former? Now of course theists love showing probabilities and the unlikeliness of chance as a reason why there must be a creator but I would argue that's precisely why the universe is wonderful as is our existence. Precisely because it's so unlikely to be is why it's precious and removing that devalues it and the universe.
But of course we as humans need order and reasons for things which is why some make the assertions that we and everything must have been created yet it is reason and logic most of the time that theists reject as being objectionable, placing a much higher value on faith, faith without evidence. I find this rejection of our faculties objectionable and why would I want there to be a god who would favor us not using our minds? Is it better to assume New Orleans was ravaged because of it's decadent refusals of god's rules or that we live on the surface of a cooling planet which causes turbulent weather and making such tragedies an inevitable event of existence? Is it better to assume that homosexuals are being smited by god with AIDS or that there's a virus at work that we need to use our minds to discover a cure for?
Of course the last resort of theists is Pascal's wager, which is essentially that if you don't believe and there's no god, well good for you but if you don't believe and there is, you're in trouble, pal, so it's the safer bet to believe. What have you got to lose? Aside from the obvious used car huxsterism that this sounds like, I believe I've explained at length above what you have to lose, the complete devaluing of humanity and the universe plus is it really virtuous to believe in an entity and follow a set of his rules under fear of eternal torture? Is it true morality to not run through the streets raping and killing because god says so or else you'll burn eternally or because you honestly think it's wrong? If there is a god and he would deem the former more moral and worthy than the latter than what a frighteningly terrible universe it is and yet another reason why I would have to be an anti-theist, one who fully objects to the existence of a god.
2007-10-09
My Anti-Theism Explanation
Posted by
PhillyChief
at
5:03 PM
Labels: anti-theism, antitheism, City-data, Hitchens
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18 comments:
What, pray tell, caused you to be banned from that forum? Did you insinuate that you wanted to partake of carnal relations with the moderator again? Because surely it couldn't have been what you wrote.
I've got no thumbscrews to threaten you with, but I was just going to ask the same question as Spanish Inquisitor. I don't see anything even remotely objectionable in your post.
Maybe they didn't like "screwed the pooch"? (You could have said "slept with the pooch.")
No, it wasn't over this. The irony is they had just ousted the fundie mods in that subforum (although at least one of the head mods I think is one, or sympathetic to them) so the place isn't too bad now. Problem is I had accumulated a bunch of negative points under the old mods and then when I got a new one, I hit the total that forces banning.
What tipped me over was my frustration with a YEC named Isaac Bourne, aka Ikester7579. The guy is a loon but of course if you're loony for the lord, you do get a pass at that forum. Some of his topics include accusing Darwin was a racist, which of course means Evolution is about racism, scientists are lying about Lucy, the "Man Tracks" in Texas are really man and dino tracks, and his notion of "eternal time", where god made the world appear to be old. These and more can be found on his site and EvoWiki. The guy does the same thing in every post:
1) Make outrageous claim
2) Accuse people who object as christian haters
3) Cry foul and vilify you for making personal attacks
Apparently pointing this out was an infraction, then linking to other sites where he exhibits the same behavior (to establish a pattern of behavior) was an infraction and of course using his real name was an infraction so I was sent packing. I mean I think these are the reasons. I didn't get an explanation in email.
I think it's important to interact with the other side instead of merely talking amongst ourselves, which is why I went there. Of course my patience for loons is thin. I wrote about the place earlier when I was temporarily banned back in August.
I guess I'm just one of those "angry atheists". Grrrr
Man sorry to hear you got banned. That sucks. Thought it was actually nice to have a voice of reason on that forum to present both sides of a story.
Now I have to watch as Isaac "Shitferbrains" posts his ridiculous claims..
-Bigthirsty
Hey Philly, did you get to see the comments I left on Tuesday regarding why I saw the rise of anti-theism as possibly becoming a threat to my religious freedom? (cg81)
to add.... was sorry that you couldn't respond to my comments and wanted to see if you saw, even remotely, where I was coming from.. (cg)
I'm sorry but no, I did not see your comments cg81 although I don't see how antitheism leads to loss of religious freedom. Yes, as an antitheist I would like to see religions fall away like other notions such as flat Earth and sun rotating around the Earth but no, I would never advocate the limiting of religious freedom for 3 reasons:
1) The US Constitution guarantees freedoms of speech and thought
2) I want my position to win, for real, not by default for being the only player allowed
3) I think history shows nothing works better to inflate a person or idea than to try and silence them
Thanks for stopping by cg81 and you too, BigThirsty. I am banned from that forum but I will continue to write here so feel free to stop in occasionally, have a read, and chime in. Anyone else curious about where I am or why I'm not responding to their questions, I'd appreciate it if you pointed them this way. :)
Just to explain a little where I was coming from... Tho I agree that the US Constitution guarantees freedom of speech and thot, if something was seen as a real threat, and harmful to society, this wouldn't be permitted. For example, in India years ago young girls were imprisoned in the temple and subject to immorality and abuse. This of course wouldn't be allowed, because "human rights" trump "religious freedom." If most of society in power thought as you did, that religion was suppressing people, suppressing scientific advancement, children were being indoctrinated with fairy tales and subject to fear and emotional stress by belief in a Man Upstairs, don't you think that laws would come into place that would try to suppress this? It wouldn't fall under "religious freedom", but "human rights", IMO. (cg81)
If those in power shared my views, then religion would not have an opportunity to suppress people or Science because laws that have existed for some time would be enforced, such as no religious tests for jobs, no violations of the Separation of Church and State such as icons on government properties or proselytizing by government employees or people or organizations receiving government grants to act on the government's behalf, no chaplaincy positions in government or the armed forces, and no religious influence on policy decisions such as stem cell research, rights of homosexuals, intruding on issues involving brain dead people, abortion, blue laws, and so on. As it is, the recent attempts of getting religion into classrooms as science has failed and hopefully will continue to fail in whatever new form creationism gets packaged in next.
I know some like the RRS are pushing for religious belief to be recognized as a mental illness. I could never see this happening except in extreme cases but in those cases today those people are already pulled aside and labeled with some sort of disorder or as a danger to themselves or others such as people denying medical care for their children. Also, in examples like say in the movie Carrie (and there's a real world serial killer hillbilly guy I can't think of) where the parent goes beyond simple "fairytales" and proceeds to physically and emotionally abuse the child, a new religion as mental illness is not needed since such examples are already seen as abuse and the parent as disturbed.
Now I've gone and done it.. I put in a prayer request on the main page to have you un-banned.
-BigThirsty
So if I were reinstated, would that be proof of a god and his divine intervention? Should I hope that I'm not reinstated as proof prayer doesn't work and thus, no god?
Too funny! LOL
Well the creationists would argue you coming back would be just another example of how "Evolutionists" are taking over.. And since "Evolutionists" are obviously Satan and if Satan exists then logic would indicate God exists..
Too funny.. Anyway take care.. I'll check back in every now and then for some sanity.
-BigThirsty
That's too bad. I looked through that forum, and found that there were some interesting and lively discussions going on. Reminded me a lot of IIDB, and not just the look and feel.
The moderation was one of the reasons I've slowed down on IIDB. Haven't posted anything there in over a year, or two. I like an unmoderated, or self moderated forum. Blogs are much better at the unrestricted give and take, if you get enough people to participate.
Hey - "IKESTER7579" is only one of thousands of worthless computer-addicted exhibitionist nobodies who, without the incredible inventions of BILL GATES, & Co. would have NO MEANINGFUL LIFE WHATSOEVER.
Truly, computers have given "Issac Bourne" (his real name,btw)a sense that finally he is somebody, other than a worthless, likely broke, disabled dupe-loser who runs an "AMWAY"-style synthetic oil distribution franchise in Jacksonville Florida, and spends endless hours surfing internet "forums in a psychiatrically-drugged stupor, enlightening his millions of followers to the "Truth" of Young-Earth Creationism.
This is the joke you're up against, fyi....
I was just surfing and came across your antitheism explanation. Your delivery is most enjoyable and fun reading. Perhaps though we're putting theist in a box. You really are gifted at making them look like lemmings! LOL, you're good. But more on a serious note, I have trouble with my counscience about something in my atheist viewpoint...it's this moral nihilism thing. I can't figure out how to respond to people when they tell me that my beleif system has no moral base. They say philisophically that 'Kant' used the term 'reasonable'. Seems what's reasonable is what is ethical. But what's reasonable to one may not be reasonable to another? Help. What is our moral base? and by the way, I was recently told that Stalin and Hitler were also antitheist, is that true? I'm sure it's just the theist trying to make us look bad. Oh yeh, sorry, but I have one more question I get asked too frequently: 'where is my hope?' I had no idea how to answer that one so I just said who needs hope...oops, that didn't come out right.
Thanks, dan
Well Dan, you've got a lot of questions there and each of them could warrant a book probably. Let me try and all too briefly touch on each issue.
I'm of the opinion that there are no moral absolutes. There may be, but I don't see how. There's nothing inherently moral or immoral in any action. It's humanity that assigns a moral value to actions, and as such, there's discrepancies over those assignments (for instance, consensual sex between an adult and a 17yo in AL is fine, but in PA that's rape). The religious claim of moral absolutes via their holy books is not really a moral absolute, either. They've CHOSEN to follow that particular set of morals. To further complicate matters, they've also chosen what parts to follow and what parts to ignore (for instance, why is Leviticus right about gays but wrong about stoning unruly children to death?) Plus, interpretation has changed over time, reflecting that society dictates morals, not holy books (ie - the same book which is read today as mandating freedom once was read to mandate slavery). This lack of inherent morality or moral absolutes can lead to nihilism, but it doesn't have to (that was most of the impetus for Nietzsche's writings). I would look at his 'Revaluation of all values', and specifically his book Beyond Good and Evil.
The Stalin/Hitler thing is an old religious con. It can be rebuffed in many ways. First, atheism is a position, not a philosophy, so there's nothing about atheism that mandates evil actions. Second, the rejection of Christian morality does not mean evil is a necessary consequence (see above). Third, as history shows, Christian morality is certainly no guarantee that one won't perform evil acts (in fact, Hitler at least cited Christianity's anti-semeticism in his actions). Fourth, to go all historical, try this.
I can't tell you where your hope is. You have to find that yourself, but you don't need belief in a god for hope. For instance, I'm an atheist and I have hope that one day I won't have to answer these fucking questions from Christians. LOL!
Thanks for stopping by, and the kind words.
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