The thing I have discovered about Christians is that none of them (at least that I have ever met) were born Christians. They all at one time had a healthy curiosity and natural wonder about the world.
How do or why do people become Christians? I find invariably that what led to their belief in Christianity is certainly not science, but disappointment. When asked why they believe in their god, the primary reason isn't because the Christian bible was so persuasive and undeniable that there just had to be a god. Instead they find existence of a god comforting in light of things like human suffering and evil.
The equation goes like this: Life is supposed to be good. Life is or suddenly becomes not good. Question why life isn't good. Believe in a god who is good and therefore has good reasons for everything and will be your personal buddy.
I am not saying that I or others who do not hold belief of a good and personal god don't wrestle with things like cancer, children born with HIV, hurricanes, earthquakes and other disasters and tragedies. However, are we really better off believing in a god? Is it worth sacrificing that healthy curiosity, wonder, and self reliance for some delusional comfort or peace in the face of tragedy believing that there was some being behind it and had reason for it?
Furthermore, the Christian, although in his own mind is able to embrace the notion of an all-good, all-knowing, all-powerful god, is still at a loss as to how to explain goodness. By this I do not simply mean the existence of goodness, but the universal agreement with and pursuit of it. There is no society on earth or in history that does not uphold and pursue justice and love, and condemn evil and injustice. The Christian belief is that in order to have morals, one must have a moral standard, and in order to have a standard there must be a standard maker; yet, how to reconcile this with the fact that every society on earth or in history upholds and pursues justice and love but only a fraction of them are or were Christian? Also, what about Christianity not being any better at dealing with such things as lying, stealing, oppression, and abuse than non-Christians? Ironically, it is the Christian's insistence of their god as THE source for good that is among the strongest arguments for disbelief of their god.
I would agree that it would be nice to think of an all-good judge, who would have a problem with much of the evil people do so that they would all be in big trouble one day. Suddenly Christianity doesn't look so bad! After all, with such a judge, then everyone must be accountable, or else. In other words, Christianity becomes both a convenient "crutch" (another irony!) to accept and perhaps delight in some people's evil doings for they will one day get theirs, and also Christianity becomes an anchor, a terror inducing belief to force compliance of what the religion claims is good.
However, thankfully as Epicurus explained long ago, such a god could not exist. The notion of an all-good, all-powerful, all-knowing god is simply self contradicting.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not all-powerful.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
There is no perfect magic being who can take our suffering away, and no way to reconcile the existence of such a being with the existence of evil and suffering, especially that which man has no responsibility for like hurricanes and cancer. It is indeed comforting to think it all happens for some reason, and that the bad people of the world will one day be judged and punished, but such comfort is false comfort for it's not only unrealistic, but when you actually look at the claims of Christianity, they're self-contradictory. The good news is we humans don't require such pacifiers or false fears. We're capable of both establishing moral standards and dealing with the evil and suffering of the world. If you seek comfort, take comfort in that.
This is a retooling of this ridiculous piece.
2009-05-03
The straw man of Christians
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28 comments:
Yes, I did have an interest in the natural world... and the political world, and the sociological world, religious, etc., and I wondered why our leaders in policy and academia would lie to us and argue among themselves. They proved themselves unreliable, so I went out to see for myself if what they told me was true.
Where people think that God has to necessarily come-a-runnin' every time they whistle, is a mystery I haven't solved yet! If He's God, then He, of necessity, must know the end from the beginning, and maybe... just MAYBE... knows what is best, even if we don't, at the time? We elect governments to run our affairs and then we complain when they don't pander to our whims. What we REALLY want is a puppet or extension of ourselves, something that we can control, because it's always been about control with men. God is the ultimate puppet that men aspire to use to fulfill their plans and agendas, and satisfy their every selfish whim, and when He doesn't stand up and wag his tail for them, they complain!
Does a parent ( a responsible one ) go running after every cry their offspring makes? What happens if they do is a spoiled child. Notice that it is the less affluent countries that are more devout and appreciative than the more prosperous ones? Fact is, we're a spoiled ROTTEN society, ungrateful and whining little sots that have to have it all the time, and NOW!
How can something inherently rotten explain goodness? We are flawed creations, made that way by our own transgressions. Pseudo-science tells us we're only getting better... apparently, pseudo-science doesn't spend a whole lot of time in the shittier places on earth, now, does it?
And, how are we better off believing that there is no supreme being that we must render an account to, or that there is nothing but a deep dark hole waiting for us, for eternity, at the end of a useless existence? Forever is a long time, and how is it we're here now? Why did we have to be here now?
God's agenda, thankfully, doesn't depend upon man's approval. He works at His own pace and in His own time, to effect the salvation of all of those that want it. You, Chief, don't HAVE to have it, that's your choice. I, however, DO wish to have it. There is a lot more to this than what little consideration you've given it. Your spiritual training is very limited, I can tell, due to your ignorance of what I would call the basic tenets of Christianity.
Don't worry, though. I'll work with you on that. See, that's my mandate as a witness for Christ.
"How can something inherently rotten explain goodness?".
Assuming then that there is a great, goody god, how can you expect people to "render an account" to him? Even if he were all goody good, if people are so "inherently rotten" then there should be no expectation on his part that anyone should be good; therefore, no justification for punishing those who aren't.
As if that isn't perplexing enough, then you have to wrap your head around how such "inherently rotten" people managed to survive for so long before ever hearing about your god. Then, you have to wrap your head around how such people not only get along now, but do so quite well, without any acknowledgment or obedience to the Christian god.
From your account, it sounds like you exemplify what the story portrays, someone who believes out of yearning for a binky. I do feel sorry for you for that, and I think you could do a lot better for yourself. Perhaps in the back of your mind you already know this, and that's why you spend so much time on atheist blogs.
Don't worry though. I'll work with you on that. See, that's my mandate as a fellow human.
@ Philly - very nice, but I have to correct you on something I think you've misjudged. I think most(even the Christians you've met) were raised in Christianity or very close proximity to it. What I think happens for most, is that they have an apostasy between the teens and 30's. THEN they go through everything you talked about. Often, those people will describe themselves as "not having been Christian", because they WEREN'T - at the time the rejoined! I don't think the Christian meme is nearly strong enough to stand on its own merits without the early indoctrination of society.
@ Gideon - Good morning! I feel your pain. This paragraph sums up for me how you and countless millions of others must feel:
And, how are we better off believing that there is no supreme being that we must render an account to, or that there is nothing but a deep dark hole waiting for us, for eternity, at the end of a useless existence? Forever is a long time, and how is it we're here now? Why did we have to be here now?
Undoubtedly this sums your true feelings and I understand that. However, it does nothing to affirm the actual existence of god(s) - let alone the particular god you have chosen to believe in. It's an argument from personal incredulity.
Your life has the same potential for meaning if there is no god. In fact, stripped of the need to defend and worship that god, you will be free to accomplish much more with the time you have here.
Honestly, Gideon - although I'm an atheist, I really don't mind you believing there is something greater to the universe. I would just kindly suggest that you acknowledge what you sort of hinted at in the early paragraphs of your comment - whatever your god is - it isn't what you or any other human being is presently considering it to be. Since this is, and will remain, beyond your grasp just live your life to the fullest and deal with eternity when you get there.
As I said, and you have verified with your questions, you know little of Christian life and faith. For one thing, man can do nothing to render himself acceptable in God's sight. That is why Christ had to live His life of total obedience in our stead - to satisfy the demands of the broken covenant between man and God. All may now have life if they accept Christ's intercession, and live in accordance with His laws. The law was never done away with, only the condemnation it gave to man, because of man's transgression.
It's like me paying a bill for you that you cannot afford to pay, yourself. I, however, expect you to stand on your own two feet, afterward. I don't want to have to keep bailing you out. What rational person would?
I serve God out of gratitude for what He has done, and has sacrificed for me. It, to me, is as real as your delusions are to you. I could never turn my back on what I know, because there is no other rational explanation for reality. No one forces me to do anything that I do not want to do, especially Him. I'm free to stay or leave of my own accord.
I think I've done pretty good for myself, however, the Christian's reward is not of this reality, but the one to come. Atheists preach the antithesis of life - death. They celebrate death and revere it, because they turn away from life and it's Source. Knowingly or unknowingly, that is what they do. So, you needn't feel sorry for me, but for yourself... yours is the gloomier scenario!
God expects all to accept life, but, does not compel anyone to do it. As for Him punishing the unrepentant, it is really their own doing. God's creation outside of this one world is flawless and perfect. Sin's repulsiveness is something that we cannot fully comprehend, so it is left to faith to accept God's revelation that it cannot abide in His presence, or anywhere in His creation where He is omnipresent. Those who refuse His Son's mediation, refuse life. That is why they will be destroyed, because they are full of hate and rebelliousness, and would have no place in a sinless universe.
Even if they could go somewhere else in this universe, without the abiding presence of God's Spirit holding their evil natures in check, they would, eventually, destroy themselves. It is not any inherent goodness that keeps society from annihilation, right now, it is solely God's power. One day, that power will be removed, as it is slowly being done now, and it will be a living hell on this planet. It is then that His redeemed will be rescued, and the rest will perish.
Yes, I certainly don't have to spend any time talking with you infidels. I could be out there doing other things, making money, conversing with others of like mind, etc. Tell me... is there all that much satisfaction in setting up a blog, possibly with the idea of learning new things and interacting with others, yet having only those that agree with you stop by?
We're all here this long by God's grace, because He wants as many as possible to be saved. He doesn't intervene in every affair of man's, and man goes on living according to his own will - procreating, engaging in trade, etc. However, the plan of salvation involves time, and, in due time, the process will end. Right now is the time to settle any doubts one might have about God and reality, now, while one is still breathing.
There certainly is an eternity of nothingness awaiting SOME... but, it doesn't have to be the case for ANY, if God had His say. That decision, ultimately, rests with us.
John, your quote of my statement does not reflect any morose or foreboding thinking on my part about our future... in fact, I hardly think about it at all.
Actually, truthfully, I found great satisfaction in finally getting to the bottom of life's mysteries, or most of them, when I found the gospel.
God, to me, is what He, Himself, has seen fit to reveal to me through His Word. There is no other way to describe or even contemplate the Almighty.
I have no pain, or fear! And, now, I am accomplishing much more than I ever thought that I could, while still an agnostic. In fact, being that I am 50 years old, I really only started living at 23! Before that... mediocrity, I guess, is the best term to use.
You infidels labor under the grossest misconceptions of what it means to be a Christian! In that, I feel sorry for YOU!
Oh... and as for me defending God, well, He's a big boy, He's been defending Himself for a lot longer than I've been around. He doesn't need me to do anything for Him.
However, I do find great satisfaction giving my witness... albeit colorful at times, I'll admit, to others that might appreciate or need the knowledge I have. Actually, Christian witness is for the benefit of the believer, not God. He doesn't need anything from man, it's the other way around. Man was created FOR Him, BY Him. I know that's blasphemy for you guys, but...
No. I'm just fine doing what I do. Despite our sometimes colorful exchanges, I don't consider myself better than any one of you, just more enlightened in some matters. The Gospel being one. You certainly have the privilege of believing what you want, if that's really what you want.
Evo: When I retool Christian nonsense, I try to stay as close to the original as possible. Your correction I agree with, but didn't fit the re-write.
Gideon: First of all, no one needs to know anything about Christian faith. Christianity, Hinduism, Scientologists, or whatever else need to supply evidence for their claims. I'm tired of hearing the bullshit that atheists just haven't given it a try or learned all the intricacies, like any of that has shit to do with there being no evidence for your god's existence. Here's a clue - come up with some evidence and EVERYONE will be jumping to learn all about Christianity. Until then, aside from shear amusement, I find no reason to study Christianity any more than I already have.
As for what I have studied, it makes no sense. If you could pull your head out of your ass for a moment and look at it objectively, you'd see that. However, you're looking for a warm, comforting order to everything with reasons for it all, and those desires of yours are blocking your objectivity. I get it pal, and I also get how maintaining the delusion twists you into a bitter crank who generally can't take things seriously and has to berate and belittle and assert such ridiculous nonsense like "Atheists preach the antithesis of life - death" and so forth. If it gets you through the day, so be it. As I said earlier though, I think you could do better.
Evo,I basically see things the way you describe to Gideon, in your last paragraph. That was a good paragraph.
Philly,However, are we really better off believing in a god? Is it worth sacrificing that healthy curiosity, wonder, and self reliance for some delusional comfort or peace in the face of tragedy believing that there was some being behind it and had reason for it?I don't see how theism entails sacrifice of healthy curiosity, wonder or reliance..
The Christian belief is that in order to have morals, one must have a moral standard, and in order to have a standard there must be a standard maker; yet, how to reconcile this with the fact that every society on earth or in history upholds and pursues justice and love but only a fraction of them are or were Christian?Actually, there's nothing to reconcile. That every society on Earth or in history has upheld and pursued justice is exactly what we would expect if God made humanity and instilled said sense within us. Right? "Christian" is just a label; we're all the same categorically, which is human.
Also, what about Christianity not being any better at dealing with such things as lying, stealing, oppression, and abuse than non-Christians?To me, the same thing applies again. "Christianity" is just a label for the actions of a large somewhat diverse group. All people are fallible. All religions are composed of people. All religions must also be fallible, right?
There is no perfect magic being who can take our suffering away,I assume this is a figurative statement, as none of us know. As far as Epicurus goes, unpack the presuppositions and things change quite a bit, but I don't know if we could have a productive conversation on the POE. It seems we're both pretty committed to our positions.
I'd just like to say that the standards of good and evil are relative and change over time as well as from culture to culture. People can even change their own views on good and evil throughout their lives when they see the effects of various things.
However, I do suppose that there is a sort of evolution that goes with beliefs concerning the subject matter of good and evil too in that some cultures spread their influence while other cultures lose their influence.
Christians, in establishing their moral standards and historical mythologies as dogma are making an attempt at keeping their cultural beliefs intact. This could very well be a losing proposition for Christianity which can very well be overtaken by other more fit cultural beliefs and influences.
For instance, what is the sense of trying to claim eternal punishment for the sins of pornography when that is a booming business? The porn industry has largely disproved the Christian assertion that lust and pornography is intrinsically evil. Certainly the Christians can't fall back on the crazy threats from their Sodom and Gomorrah Myth, that doesn't make causal sense and they have no proof whatsoever to back up their myth so naturally people aren't going to buy the propaganda that the Christians are selling. The majority of the time the Christians are wasting in vain trying to convince people of a moral authority in these matters.
Then there is the dead book of Genesis Creation. This really hurts the credibility of the Christian belief system because there are no such things as Gardens of Eden, talking snakes, singing angels, etc, and so these myths are losing influence in a modern day society as well. The Christians are wasting time in vain attacking knowledge gaps in evolution and cosmology where their real effort should be in proving their own absurd beliefs about a magical god that is de-ribbing people to make more people or 40 foot tall angels that should be visible from Google Earth, etc.
Christians still maintain a whole bunch of absurd beliefs that are already widely known to be disproved. I said this to Gideon over on his site too:
"Christians are hopelessly lost in life. They desire to make no real contributions to science and they desire to settle for vague illogical explanations that the ancients dreamed up and placed onto scrolls. Christians claim that facts are fiction and that fiction is facts but they are wrong on these matters.
That being said, there are no Gardens of Edens, no talking perpetually burning bushes, no people turning into pillars of salt, no people living inside the belly of a whale, no multitudes of trumpeting angels, no people walking around in fiery furnaces unharmed, no lightning gods etching commandments into stone or setting fires to water soaked alters, no gods being born of virgins sent on sacrificial missions, no eternal torments or prosperities, no fiery horsemen in the clouds seeking vengeance, no divine favors or interventions, no vague mystical revelations of future events that can only be interpreted by divine communication, no miracles or curses, no demons that distract people with vices, no holy spirits responsible for setting ablaze people's desires, or anything of the likes....none of this exists in reality, it's all just in the heads of the creative few following the doomed beliefs of the ancients who like to color outside of the lines of reality without paying any particular attention to what reality truly is. The truth is that we have a natural world that obeys natural laws, and I realize that it can be a huge letdown for Christians when they get into academia and start studying the real facts of life. Hey, those religious texts make for great mythical stories though, on the level of all the other religious myths throughout history, and it is kind of fun to look through history and see what people commonly believed and then see the causal outcomes of those beliefs (Salem Witch Trials, the Dark Ages, the Egyptian Pyramids, etc). That doesn't mean that we, as rational human beings, actually have to buy into those events from the perspective that they were actually true. It is no small wonder why academia rejects the majority of the things Christians believe in, mainly because their beliefs are superstitions that have been repeatedly proved wrong (by causality) many times throughout the annals of history and is still routinely being proved wrong even to this day, especially with the modern availability of the internet."
"Christian" is just a label?
Now that's rich.
I don't see how theism entails sacrifice of healthy curiosity, wonder or reliance...
I was referring to belief in the Christian god. No, theism doesn't necessarily mean a sacrifice of those things as long as you keep your god conveniently abstract and out of the way. There are a lot of people who like to assign wonder or the unknown "god". Seems silly to me, but if it floats your boat, I don't much care.
"Seems silly to me, but if it floats your boat, I don't much care."Well, Chief, what the hell do you care about, then? Why bother blogging at all... just to gather a herd of admirers and yes-men? That's like about 95% of the other blogs online, anyone can do that!
Despite the friction between us, I sense there's more to you than that... what gives?
Gideon, I think Philly is just saying its fine to believe in some abstract god. He won't do it himself, but if you don't want to dogmatize your god, whatever. What he does care about and blog about is dogma.
cl - should I take it then that you have finally answered my 4 questions?
Belief is a drug, like alcohol, pot, heroin, smoking, etc. It's best that you don't indulge in any of that shit, but if you must, try to do so responsibly.
That's something I care about.
Chief, as long as you can apply that to Atheism, as well, I'm good with that!
There really is no dogma involved when I say, "I don't believe in any gods", Gideon, and that's the entire meaning of the word "atheist". Whatever else might go with it, for me, is going to be different from how Philly or any other atheist sees it. Compare that to what it means when someone says they are a Jehovah's Witness, Mormon, Scientologist, Catholic, etc.
Philly,Even with your clarification - I still don't see how belief in the Christian God entails sacrifice of healthy curiosity, wonder or reliance. I don't think your premise supports your conclusion.
Evo,Nothing in your statement that I concurred with constitutes a direct answer to your questions. It should be self-evident that I believe in a greater power if I'm not an atheist.
power(s) ... or perhaps myths.
cl -
In that case:
Do you believe in the god of the Christians? Do you think Jesus is the son of god or an actual part of god who took human form or neither? Do you think he died for your sins? Do you think belief in him and repenting for sins is the way to go to heaven?
And before you go off on one of your "this doesn't apply to the topic", I would find it very relevant in terms of your concerns expressed to Philly in the same comment above. If you happen to think any of these things, I can see how they could indeed effect your "curiosity, wonder or reliance" in the natural world. If you are not one of these types of believers in "a higher power", then you might be right. But then I don't think you would have any real argument with Philly, either.
Note: I know the answers to all 4 of the questions for Gideon. As you can see, We've continued to have a constructive dialogue here and at my blog.
God's agenda, thankfully, doesn't depend upon man's approval. He works at His own pace and in His own time, to effect the salvation of all of those that want it.That assumes that our tiny little speck of a planet, which circles one of billions of stars in a galaxy in a universe filled with billions of galaxies each filled with billions of their own stars and planets represents some sort of central front in a cosmic war between good and evil.
What I see in all of this religious yearning, having once had it myself, is the need to make ourselves important in the grand scheme of things. Whether it's being personally "saved" or looking forward to the End Times, it's a way of trying to make ourselves an integral part of some epic saga that exists only in our minds.
Personally, as an atheist, I don't have a problem with people being religious at all. I even concede the possibility that our universe might have been designed by some higher intelligence that we cannot comprehend.
But that's the thing. Even if our universe was designed, it does not follow that the creator of the universe impregnated a virgin Jewish teenage girl in the Galilee a couple of thousand years ago and that we deserve to spend an eternity in a flaming pit if we don't buy the story.
When I look at the universe, I don't see purpose. At least not purpose with us in mind. What does the impact cratered surface of Mercury or the volcanic eruptions on Jupiter's moon Io, or the existence of the Kuiper Belt have to do with a universe in which we were created to accept a particular specific belief about god? On our ocean floors, there are thermal vents teeming with marine life that are utterly indifferent to us, and if the human race vanished tomorrow, these creatures would never notice.
Why would God get all bent out of shape if some Bronze Age people tried to build a tall tower in Mesopotamia but doesn't seem to care that we have people of different nationalities and languages building an operating the International Space Station or sending probes into the farthest reaches of our solar system?
If I could believe in any god or gods (and I did a post on my blog about this once) I would believe in a god of discovery. In essence, here is this vast universe in which we find ourselves. If we can get our act together and live in peace with one another, we can channel our efforts into exploring this universe and unlocking its mysteries and secrets. Or we can wipe ourselves out or regress into ignorant barbarism. Regardless of the choices we make, the universe will go on.
Very good response Tommykey.
John Evo,"And before you go off on one of your "this doesn't apply to the topic", I would find it very relevant in terms of your concerns expressed to Philly in the same comment above."
My concerns are over how belief in the Christian God entails sacrifice of healthy curiosity, wonder or reliance, and my personal beliefs have no bearing on whether those concerns are cogent.
Tommykey,I agree with Quantum_Flux that your response was well-written.
"I even concede the possibility that our universe might have been designed by some higher intelligence that we cannot comprehend."
I like that. Shouldn't that be the default position regardless of what we believe? The way you said it, I get the impression you felt the concession was uncommon? Do you feel that many or any atheists are unwilling to make such an honest concession? Your comment confused me a bit because I hear many atheists and unbelieving skeptics appeal to fairness by ostensibly claiming to leave this possibility open, yet they're just as quick to insult God. I really do believe that God might exist, so I watch what I say about God!
LOL @ cl!!
Oh please, every rational atheist holds open that possibility that there's some magic man in the sky, but to behave as if he is real is like buying a lottery ticket and then behaving like you've already won. It's ridiculous.
I also hold out the possibility that there are in fact Gremlins in my computers who are responsible for my random render errors. Hell, I don't KNOW for sure there aren't. Oops, I've probably said too much, and they might exist, so I should watch what I say about Gremlins!
I think the atheist argument for granting the possibility of a god's existence is: sure, it is possible there's a pink and yellow teapot orbiting our sun somewhere, too small for any of our instruments to pick up.... but is it likely? Hardly...
I concur with Quantum that good and evil are too much in a flux to make the Epicurean statement anything but relative to most monotheist religions (but not exclusively).
I also agree that, almost every christian I have met has christian upbringing. There was one that was not - he felt saved from drug addiction by christ, but again, that was in a christian society. It was the natural expression of any spiritual feeling in his environment, I think.
I think we might have to define Christian here. I tend to think that to be christian you need to believe:
1, in the trinity, and
2, jesus as his prophet/savior/son on earth, and
3, the bible as his word.
I'm open to (and welcome) being corrected on this.
Now, the third is the biggest problem, since the bible - due to its inconsistency throughout - offers no moral guidance or unified theological structure without some external authority to cherrypick the right passage for the occasion and to clarify the obscurities. And that's without getting into its history.
The idea that my life is enriched by this headache is hard to believe.
I would also like to add two things I forgot:
There have also been many Christians - former preachers like Bart Ehrman, for example - that have fallen out of christianity, not from any vice but from studying the bible itself. (Although for a christian this would probably be a lack of faith - ever the enemy of any rationalist!)
Your comment confused me a bit because I hear many atheists and unbelieving skeptics appeal to fairness by ostensibly claiming to leave this possibility open, yet they're just as quick to insult God.
- That's a bit unfair cl. After all, trying to stay clear from insulting any divinity is ridiculous, and if I were to pick a favorite deity not to offend, it would certainly not be a monotheist deity. Eating beef is a serious insult to Hindu's, for example.
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