2009-06-11

How much of a holy book must be read to accurately assess it?


So I have a question for any religionist whose religion has a holy book - how much of it does one have to read in order to make a qualified assessment of it?

Seems like a really silly question at first, right? These are supposed to be "good books", inspired by immense wisdom, possibly divine wisdom (depending on the faith), so you'd think reading even the smallest bit of one should suffice. Here in the US for example, Christians are always encouraging the reading of the Christian bible. The Gideons have made it so that every hotel in the country has one in every room. There were attempts last year to have free copies of their bible delivered with some Sunday newspapers. Christian groups attempted to send their bibles to Iraq and Afghanistan to be distributed not just to soldiers, but to the locals. We have nicely dressed Christians going door to door asking if we've heard the "good news" and encouraging us to read their book. On and on and on we're encouraged to read their book, as if that's all it takes and BAM! you'll see the light and join the faith. So what happens when people do read it and don't see what the believers see?

On one hand you have the pleading like I described above to crack these things open and have a read, yet on the other, when some take the advice and make unfavorable reviews of what they read, what's the response by believers? It usually takes the form of "you have to put it in context", "you have to see the whole", or sometimes they'll actually go as far as saying you have to believe first. Now am I the only person who sees this as odd? This is supposed to be a holy book, a magical book if you will. Shouldn't it have some effect on me regardless of how much I read? Shouldn't there be SOMETHING of the "correct" message or feeling felt by every reader regardless of how much they read or what part they read? Shouldn't anyone instantly get it? Shouldn't even the briefest exposure to it have the desired effect?

So how could it be that someone could open it, read some random section and be completely put off by the whole thing? How could that be? The response by the faithful is usually context. You have to put the selected passage in the greater context of the book as a whole. This is a criticism we hear time and time again by believers responding to nonbelievers who criticize something in their holy books. So you can't get it without thorough study of the whole. On its face, that could seem legitimate yet do believers ever question those who sing the praises of their holy book about how much of it they read or on how well they understand the parts they're praising in the grand context of the book? Is the burden of biblical scholarship ever one that's expected of each and every believer before they can speak positively about their holy book? No, yet such a burden is always expected to be carried by critics, but then if such scholarship is necessary in order to properly understand the faith, then how many believers actually understand their faith? Shouldn't such scholarship be required by all if it's going to be required for some? Shouldn't just as much scholarship be required to sing its praises as criticize it?

In fairness, some faiths and some members of all the faiths would say "yes", that thorough study is required to better get the message, and that's fine, but such a position is assuming that believers with an inadequate amount of scholarship can understand the little that they've read correctly, so why can't the same be said for those who walk away not believing, and who are quite unsatisfied with what they've read? Why is there this double standard of context and scholarship? I'm afraid this whole thing just brings us back to the same old bugaboo, 'ends justify the means'. If you read just one word, or don't even bother to read any bit of a holy book yet decide it's great and join the faith, then you've read just enough because you've arrived at the desired end, but if you spend years in study of their book and don't buy what it's pushing, then clearly you need to keep at it because you haven't reached the religion's desired end.

So I would love for the religionists out there to think twice before telling a critic of their holy book and religion that they're poor scholars and haven't read or studied enough. I would also hope they ask themselves if they ever make such accusations of their cohorts, or even if they hold such scholarly standards for themselves. Of course I'm hoping that they hold intellectual honesty and fairness in high esteem, otherwise such thoughts don't matter at all. Only the thought of advancing and defending the faith matter, by any means necessary.

26 comments:

Cephus said...

They can't say anything to me, I've read it all several times and I still think it's a load of horse shit. In fact, I know the Bible better than most people I've ever debated, not just what the Bible says, but where it all came from. Christians have this bizarre belief that the Bible was handed down from on high, they don't realize where the authors stole the myths from, how the church shaped the Bible around what they already believed, etc.

I'm still waiting for a Christian who has read the whole thing and knows how it got the way it is, but anyone who did that wouldn't be a Christian anymore, would they?

PhillyChief said...

Yes, well I think they'd still say you didn't read enough, or you haven't read it correctly, or something. The point is they just can't fathom how anyone can't agree with them that their book and their faith is awesome, so obviously you have to be doing something wrong.

The real irony is that it seems the more fervent belief generally is inversely proportional to how much of a holy book one reads. I think that's why critics generally have read more, and those who leave the faith do so after having read and investigated their faith more, so saying critics need to read more in order to get it is ironic.

evolveintobirds said...

Hi! I'm a regular reader but this is the first time I've commented.

I haven't had the sort of experience you describe above in my "faith journeys". When I first had a "born again" experience many years ago, I was not encouraged to read the bible until *after* I became a believer. Why? Because you can't understand scripture without the Holy Spirit and you don't get the Holy Spirit until you're a believer. I actually became a xtian via apologetics and witnessing. What I experienced, I believe, was the typical, mainstream approach to conversion.

Later when I converted to Eastern Orthodoxy, it was assumed that you were coming into the church already as a believer and just needed to believe that the EOC was the One True Church. Sheep swapping essentially. I knew lots of people in the EOC that knew their bibles inside and out and had a justification and explanation for everything...including their preferred standby favorite: it's a mystery.

Geds said...

It's even better when you're a believer who has read the Bible and is considered extremely knowledgeable. Believe me.

Occasionally I get someone who wants to convert me and even knowing that I pretty much know the Bible inside and out they'll tell me that I need to read it more or read it correctly or be the right kind of Christian. The simple fact is that the sort of person who makes such claims will not be intellectually honest. All they're trying to do is convince you to think the same way they do.

If you've only read one word, you haven't read enough. If you've read the entire thing you haven't read it right. If you were a believing Christian but aren't any more you weren't the right kind of Christian.

That last one is especially funny coming from people you used to go to church with...

John Evo said...

I'd really like to know how many Christians have read the whole bible.

I think Evolveintobirds experience is pretty typical. Most converts become such for two reasons - first, they were born into a family or at least a society that was Christian. Then, they are approached with the standard "message of salvation" at a moment where they needed a friend. They didn't sit down and read the bible before "accepting Christ" and they probably don't read the whole text afterward.

But, as always, I'd love to see the research!

PhillyChief said...

Thanks for chiming in, folks.

What prompted this was a recent run in with a believer who was pushing this line. I guess he was the straw that broke the camel's back for me. The whole bit about not studying it properly or "thinking it thru" (another of his lines) properly is really annoying and also comical since they usually accuse atheists of being intellectual elitists yet this line of objection both contradicts that and is an exhibition of intellectual elitism of their own.

I know a guy who is a believer and he regularly says people need to read their bibles more. I couldn't agree more. ;)

Quantum_Flux said...

You read the wrong version of the Bible then evolveintobirds, and hence your mind is corrupted. Should have picked a better version you know, you aren't truly studying God's word unless you speak and read hebrew scrolls, and even then you've got to read the correct Hebrew scrolls or else you will get it wrong too. In fact, there's only one right version of the Bible and it was burned by the NAZIs during World War II, in effect making the entire world hellbound.

evolveintobirds said...

@QF: lol...The funniest one I heard was when I converted to EOC: "Why do you want to join yourself to a withered branch??". My Calvinist family say I was never really saved. My EO friends say that I'm atheist now because I gave myself over to sin and lost the Holy Spirit. Maybe that exorcism they did on me didn't take? :)

the chaplain said...


I know a guy who is a believer and he regularly says people need to read their bibles more. I couldn't agree more
.

Those words are music to a cynic's ears. Did I say, cynic? Perhaps I should have said, sinner. Either way...

Cephus said...

The problem is, they don't care about reading the Bible, they just want you to blindly believe whatever it is that they think it says, even if it demonstrably doesn't say that, and don't ask any questions. Is it any wonder that the most renown experts on the Bible in the world tend to be, at best, extremely liberal theologians? These are the people who know what it really says and know that it's all a load of bullshit.

Sarge said...

I have mentioned a late uncle, baptist minister, who would actually translate from a bible in Greek. He was taken to task quite often because he wasn't speaking it "in the English like Jesus spoke". (I remember his telling my father about how surprised he was that many children actually thought he WAS god and lived in the church steeple)

There is a joke that goes back at least to the civil war (probably before) about a preacher who has done his thing, and a lady member of the congregation gives him a bag of potatoes.
What was this for?
Well, last week during the sermon he had said he thought the scriptures meant a certain thing, although the "common taters" didn't agree with him. So they brought him these "Jersey Blues" to try.

The church my parents used to drag me to had association with a preacher named Clarence Goen who was a bible scholar and was a professor of bible history at Wesleyan. At one point he gave a course in bible history, and I was made to go to that, too.
(He used to say that this was said by his university students called his course "The Faith Killer")

There were probably a third of the people at the end than there were at the start. It was really neat to watch people screw up their faces and literally shout, "That's not in the bible I Know"! or actually throw their material down, point an accusatory finger and swear at him, then stalk out.

I have always found the experience to be salutory.

Gideon said...

"Occasionally I get someone who wants to convert me and even knowing that I pretty much know the Bible inside and out..."

Yeah... Satan knows it inside and out, too.

Gideon said...

Sarge, you're typical of the wounded hearts that slur Christianity because they've had a negative experience with it.

Ever had a negative experience with something else... like alcohol? How about driving in rush hour traffic? Do you still partake of both, anyway?

Figure it out.

Gideon said...

No one (even Christ) ever said that the faith wouldn't be without it's assholes. In fact, assholes tend to congregate there, because, it's something they can use to front their negative character without any significant backlash.

I've had my run-ins with them, and maybe I'm a bigger asshole than they are, but, it never turned me off of the truth. In fact, I won't let any bully stop me from having what I want or need. Many have cut and run, giving the assholes the satisfaction of having won. I won't give it to them.

"In this world, ye shall have trouble." The Lord well knew what many seem blissfully ignorant of... until it's too late.

Gideon said...

Is the biblical account true?

Many secular authorities seem to think so.

See here.

In fact, many important archaeological discoveries have been realized or assisted by using scripture as a guide.

The cities of Ur and Jericho, to name a couple, are examples.

At the very least, the Bible is every bit as reliable as any other historical work. Unless you were there as an eye-witness, and actually saw history unfold, you have to take someone's word for it.

And, that, my friend, about sums up everything we're taught in public schools, today, or spoon-fed from the media.

Sarge said...

Well, Gideon, I have been caught in traffic, and nope I haven't enjoyed it, but there it is. Booze? Grew up watching it, saw what it did, tried it a bit when I went in the army, but didn't like the taste of it, didn't like the vulnerability, and it cost too much to inflict this on myself, so I didn't do that. Never gambled, never womanised, never did drugs, either. Just observed the people who did, saw what their lives were like, and: no thanks, can't use 'em in my business.

This was because my father gave me good advice, use your eyes, ears, and brain. Don't accept things just because someone says so, or a bunch of people say so. Examine. My father, at one time, had the eleventh highest security clearance in the country. And he was a devout baptist and unquestioning believer all his life.

About age five I started not believing, the Sunday school/church business started to have a lot in common with Santa, the tooth fairy, ice cream that filled the whole cone, school is fun, teacher/policeman/authority figure of your choice is your friend, and, "it's for your own good". Experience has shown me that my first assessments of these things is pretty accurate.

At age eight, because I would not participate in the gov't mandated religious exercise in school, I was hailed before "authority" where an account of my "refusnik" action was demanded. I said (and was as surprised to hear it come out of my mouth as they were shocked, but it was the truth) "I don't believe in god". I've never seen a man look that angry, he was around his desk, backhanded me out of the chair, bellowed, "I'll teach you the love of god"! And he and the person who should have defended me against such monsters (my mother)gave me a five minute mauling. I came out of that with sore ribs, a black eye, a swollen lip, bruises, sore ribs, and was unable to raise my arm above shoulder level until spring, that being October.

But he did what he said, an examination, looking back shows that that's pretty much what most people equate with the "love" of their god. Anger and violence. Coersion.

I've lived all over the world, fought literally for my life (hand to hand on more than one occasion), tried to learn.

I play in churches at least twice a month, hear what's said, hear why. It is, as a girl friend used to put it, "a pound of smoke".
The people in the pews have as many reasons for what they say as there are sitting there.

I don't hate what I don't see as existing, or "The Faithful", these are the people I know.

Just can't use it in my business.

John Evo said...

I've said it before - Sarge can tell more life stories, without repeating himself, than anyone I've ever had the pleasure...

Hope you picked up a jewel or two of wisdom there, Gideon. But as you might say, I'm afraid it may be pearls before swine.

Gideon said...

Well, Sarge, I'm a great respecter of one who's served his country. I, too, wore a uniform, once, as a reservist, for a couple of years. In fact, I was the youngest member of the Canadian Forces upon enlistment in 1975. Never saw combat, and glad of it. I don't think I could live with myself, now, for having had to kill someone fighting in a rich man's war. However, 32 years on the road as a professional trucker has it's own hazards, and I've been within the reaper's grasp (and in it, once!) on more than one occasion... lost a good many fellow drivers/friends, too, usually because some moron fucked up.

I did a lot of those things your dad warned you against. Wise man. Glad you listened to him. He saved you some heartache, I can assure you. As for this "authority" that dealt you a beating, I find that somewhat hard to believe, that someone like that could exist within the system, at least for very long, anyway, but, nevertheless, I've seen some stupid antics of professed believers, and I never cut and run over something that they did or said. I don't base my beliefs on the actions of others. Maybe that makes me a rarity in this world, but, that's the way I am.

You will get what you put into it, where Christianity is concerned. If your attempts at it are half-hearted, you'll get nowhere. It's like everything else in this life. If you long for truth, as I did and do, you'll find it, but, otherwise, you'll find nothing but frustration.

Insults roll off my back like water. I've been a few knock-down-drag-outs in the real world, also. It doesn't deter me from that which I've committed myself to.

If you've decided that Christianity is bunk, and without having put the effort into it like I've described, well, you're only defeating yourself, and it sounds like you're not the type that goes down easy... except for now, that is. They say I only speculate and bullshit, offering no facts to back my assertions. How many of them even checked the links I provided, or considered the comments I've made? Much of what I've learned in life seems irrelevant to some of the younger fry, here, although they admire you, because you happen to agree with them.

Anyway, that's quite a story. I could tell a few, myself, but, I must be about my Father's business. Time's short, and the message must get out. You see, the war I enlisted in has dragged on for 6000 years, and the results will be for eternity. I'm in for the duration, however long that is.

*Salute*

cl said...

I always think of evolution in these types of discussions. Many of the same people who cry "Courtier's Reply" are the same people who fault creationists for lack of science education. Such people are at an impasse, for knowledge about a subject is either relevant - or not - not just when it behooves an argument.

If I tell you evolution is false because nobody's seen a man become a monkey, you'd question my education, and rightly so. When atheists and skeptics offer equally laughable claims in religious dressing, what's the difference? Why isn't the religionist qualified to question their education?

PhillyChief said...

Are you saying that one requires an education comparable to a scientific education on evolution before making credible comment about a holy book, cl?

cl said...

No.

Sarge said...

CL, most of us here at least recieved the standard religious indoctrination of our culture/family, in my case it was prayer meeting, Sunday school, bible study, and this college level course.

Most of us don't accept it BECAUSE of what we have, in fact, learned about it, dug a little deeper than most pew-sitters.

Sarge said...

As to seeing a man turn into a monkey, cl, watch a televangelist with the sound turned down on your TV or Bill O'Reilley have what appears to be a psychotic episode and you come about as close as you can get.

cl said...

"CL, most of us here at least recieved the standard religious indoctrination of our culture/family, in my case it was prayer meeting, Sunday school, bible study, and this college level course."

Don't mean shit.

PhillyChief said...

Study doesn't matter unless you feel the magic mojo, right?

Gideon said...

Sarge... you gotta dig deeper than a little.

Like I did.