2009-06-03

In defense of "unsophisticed", impassioned atheists


I read this piece by Chris Mooney on Discover's website where he, in responding to Jerry Coyne, made some comments I don't quite agree with. To me, I sense a sort of weariness. He admits a certain motivation back in 2001, due largely to 9/11, in challenging religion but now wishes to change gears and work towards "common solutions" and engage in "liberal tolerance".

I also have a problem with one of the commenter's expansion on Chris' characterization of challenging religion as "flailing indiscriminately". You ever get the sense that eggheads are completely out of touch with reality, out of touch with the majority of society who are certainly not eggheads? Well I certainly think so. There are many fronts in the war challenging religion. The sophisticated, purely intellectual front has it's merits certainly, but to suggest both that that's the only way to do it and that any other way is some counter productive, uncontrolled "flailing" is a mistake and evident of a lack of perspective outside their own tiny little sphere.

I don't entirely see the problem with less genteel objections to religion. As someone who delights in intellectually challenging argumentation and philosophical discussions, I put a high value on such paths to challenging religion. However, the majority of people haven't much of a care for these avenues, and I dare say most were never hooked into a religion nor continue to adhere to their religion due to sophisticated philosophical or historical arguments, so why should it be assumed not just that such arguments would disengage them from religion, but that such arguments are the only means to do so?

I very much like Coyne's comment about the intent of New Atheist criticism: "to lessen the moral authority and hegemony of religion in our society." A sophisticated line of argumentation will succeed in both intellectual circles and in legal challenges against the impositions of religion, but I would argue such an approach alone will not address the real force of religion, and that's the hearts and minds of society. Surveys show it's virtually impossible for an atheist to get elected to any political office. Most people believe you can't be moral without religion. Most people think you can't be a true American without belief in a god. The allowances for religious exemptions are causing havoc in America by way of kids not being vaccinated and in dire circumstances like Madeline Neumann. Calm, reasoned arguments alone are going to address such things? I'd say no, that such things do require emotional outrage, and comments which are "unsophisticated" with "bile" and "negativity".

I also want to address this sentiment of not wanting to contribute to the culture wars, as if conflict itself is the problem, so that tolerance and appeasement are the solutions to achieve "peace in our time". There are things worth fighting for, things worthy of outrage, things which require unsophisticated, passionate pleas and fist waving. Unfortunately, for some things there simply exists no "common solutions". Giving peace a chance is great, but there are some times when it can't deliver. Furthermore, peace should indeed be sought, but never at any cost. There are things worth fighting for, things which are more highly prized and more substantially rewarding to humanity than peace at any cost.

22 comments:

Cephus said...

I have no problem with *ANY* challenges to religion, it's about time that we introduce the idea that challenging *ANY* idea, including religion, is a good thing, it leads to exposing dangerous and untrue elements and ultimately brings about a stronger society. Unfortunately, religion for many is still a sacred cow that no one can dare challenge or question, it must be accepted as factually valid on it's face and we don't dare peek behind the old man behind the curtain. That's what's lead to such things as the Catholic pedophile priests, etc.

We need to challenge religion, we need to attack it's very foundations because that's where it's weakest. We need to expose it as a fundamental lie that falls apart under even the most cursory evaluation. Jerry Coyne is wrong, as much as I respect and like him, we cannot bow out of the fight because we're tired of fighting what seems like an overwhelming enemy. Eventually, even David can topple the unimaginably powerful Goliath.

PhillyChief said...

I don't think Coyne says we should bow out.

Postman said...

Nicely said, Philly.

John Evo said...

Jerry Coyne's response to the collaborators Mooney and Forrest.
It includes a fascinating comments sections with thoughts from such notables as Mooney himself and John Evo.

Purely by coincidence, I am currently reading "Why Evolution is True" by Jerry Coyne. I'm only about a third of the way through it, but so far it is the clearest layman's read making evolution a slam dunk. I've read better books on evolution, but if you were to recommend one book to someone who was undecided but willing to learn, this might be the one. Also a great book if you just want the critical scientific info at your fingertips for arguments.

PhillyChief said...

Btw, I saw Into the Storm Sunday on HBO about Churchill. Interesting, but not that great. I did immediately think of that period when I read the article. Coyne seems to have a similar opinion, only I think he's seeing them more as the French collaborators, whereas I see the pansies like Chamberlain willing to give up Czechoslovakia.

Look, people who think bad things but like kittens still think bad things. What, we should stay mum just because of the kitten thing?

the chaplain said...

Good post. I especially liked this bit:

-- Unfortunately, for some things there simply exists no "common solutions". Giving peace a chance is great, but there are some times when it can't deliver. Furthermore, peace should indeed be sought, but never at any cost. --

There are many points at which the religious seek to impose their other-worldly values and visions on this-world. If the other-world visions and values clash with this-world (as they often (but not always) do), those of us who seek to make the best of this-world must stand up for ourselves.

Quantum_Flux said...

I'll bet you realize that the secret ingredient in Traditional Coke and German Red Bull was actually discovered by a German intellectual some time ago, likely an atheist too. Anyhow, nothing wrong with a little Red Bull fueled porno or barfight here and there, it's actually quite entertaining to watch the impassioned. In fact, the Wild West could have never been won without Jack and Coke.

Quantum_Flux said...

Oh shit!

Quantum_Flux said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Quantum_Flux said...

Disregard that rabbit.

Sean the Blogonaut F.C.D. said...

Why don't bands use famous poliyical speeches or narrative into's any more. I also like the start to the Number of the Beast and Rhyme of the Ancient Mariner.

PhillyChief said...

Bruce has a thing for theatricality. It must be due to the fencing.

cl said...

Philly said, "I don't entirely see the problem with less genteel objections to religion. As someone who delights in intellectually challenging argumentation and philosophical discussions, I put a high value on such paths to challenging religion."

Philly, you have to realize, though - the vast majority of religionists don't have skin thick enough to hang. They cower defensively at "less genteel objections" which effectively closes their minds to your point, leading them to walk away and write more crappy posts, leading you to have to rebut more crappy posts with less genteel objections, and I'm sure you can see the futility.

PhillyChief said...

Well for starters, how do we know their minds aren't already closed to any of my points, regardless of the gentility of their delivery?

Different strokes for different folks, and the only futility I see is thinking any stroke will do any good for certain folks. ;)

John Evo said...

Different strokes for different folks

Yep. All I know is that during this era of the "militant" atheist, we have seen a significant shift in the numbers of people who openly acknowledge an atheistic position and the number of people who have moved to an unaffiliated position when asked their denomination.

Yes, this is correlation without proving causation. However, with little invested other than different people being open about it in different ways, I'm all for a continuation of the current state of discourse until empirical evidence shows that people shut down and stop listening when you criticize them.

The other factor here is the "3rd Party", who isn't being attacked but who has the opportunity to think about both sides of what s/he just heard or read.

cl said...

Philly said, "Well for starters, how do we know their minds aren't already closed to any of my points, regardless of the gentility of their delivery?"

We don't, and that we don't has no bearing on efficacy and gentility of delivery. All I'm saying is that in general, receptivity declines with gentility. When people insult others, it generally makes the insulted less inclined to agree.

Take our relationship, for example. The only reason I've been such a pest with you was precisely because of the "less genteel" way you treated me on our very first date. Now, if you were just my stoner neighbor, and we never once discussed religion because we respected each other, and those insults over petty differences never arose because we respected each other - I suspect things would be different, and that we'd both be far more open to the other's opinions. Don't'cha think?

PhillyChief said...

I doubt it. I find it hard to believe you limit your douchery to just one topic of conversation. Hell, you probably don't even have to open your mouth.

The simple fact that we can sit here and debate the efficacy of gentility undermines an absolute assertion of it's efficacy one way or another. Lucky for me, I'm not asserting an absolute or even a general efficacy then. ;)

cl said...

You said, "I find it hard to believe you limit your douchery to just one topic of conversation. Hell, you probably don't even have to open your mouth."

Of course you doubt it! You're an atheist. Doubt and problems with belief are your specialty.

You said, "The simple fact that we can sit here and debate the efficacy of gentility undermines an absolute assertion of it's efficacy one way or another."

Wow, you really are a genius who's "almost always right!"

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